Roland TR-8S Sysex: What's what?

Question

MIDI Target Manufacturer(s): Roland

I have successfully "learned" two sysex messages from the device. These control one parameter of my TR-8S: the Delay Send for the "OH" instrument. When I press each button -- they're buttons for now -- they work and successfully change the parameter! 

Of course I want more control, though:

LOW VALUE MESSAGE (near zero), F0 and F7 removed

41 10 00 00 00 45 12 10 59 18 10 00 01 6E 

HIGH VALUE MESSAGE (near 127), F0 and F7 removed

41 10 00 00 00 45 12 10 59 18 10 0F 0E 52  

Anyone can see that the last three bytes are varying, but...

1. Is the Checksum just the last byte? I think checksums are just one byte.
2. Is the value two bytes? I'm pretty sure this thing is 0-127, but maybe not?
3. How many bytes is the device ID? Since sysex isn't mentioned in the MIDI spec at all, how can I guess this or know this?

Specific questions about the TR-8S

1. Which byte is the Kit? 
2. Is #1 the only good question for the TR-8S?

Downloads: 88
Bank 1 - TR-8S One Control.mididesignerpage - Just including a One-Control Page which adjusts OH Delay Send for one Kit (not sure which)
Downloads: 88

Comments

The MIDI Implementation Chart: https://www.zikinf.com/manuels/roland-tr-8s-midi-implementation-chart-en-77412.pdf

Answer 1

Part 1: SysEx Format

The current TRs use Roland "four byte model ID" format.  Use another four byte detailed MIDI Implementation manual (RD-2000, Jupes, etc.).  Or just use the cheat sheet below.

From these other manuals, or being too much of a MIDI geek, you learn the Roland data memory map format.  We have to decode it, but I already have much laid out.  Coming in part 2.

Images

Screenshot 2024-04-08 at 12.19.03 PM.png

Answer 2

Part 1: SysEx Format

The current TRs use Roland "four byte model ID" format.  Use another four byte detailed MIDI Implementation manual (RD-2000, Jupes, etc.).  Or just use the cheat sheet below.

From these other manuals, or being too much of a MIDI geek, you learn the Roland data memory map format.  We have to decode it, but I already have much laid out.  Coming in part 2.

Images

Screenshot 2024-04-08 at 12.19.03 PM.png

Answer 3

Part 2: Memory Map Overview

Part 1 discussed the message format.  What goes in the address bits?  If we had a Roland MIDI Implementation, they would first show the overall memory layout.

Here is what I have decoded so far.  My focus was on the sequencer, so I haven't decoded where instrument and maybe sample data lives.

A complicator with the TRs is that there is no scratchpad memory (or maybe the entire unit is scratchpad).

On many synths (all Roland I have worked so far), if I want to edit the sound in part 1, it will be found in a fixed memory location TEMP - Part 1.

The TR does not copy data to a TEMP buffer, but plays directly from original memory locations.  So if I want to edit the instrument in the Bass Drum slot, I cannot go to TEMP - BD.  Instead, we have to look up which kit that is, determine the memory offset for that, then a memory offset for the Bass Drum, then send (or req) value to that address.

Looking at the example message, the address data is 10 59 18 10    
- Using the table, we can see this is kit data, kit 59h, or kit 90 (89 + 1)
- The data is two bytes.  The highest value is 0F - 0F.   This appears is a value that goes 0-255 (00-FF) using what I call Roland nibble encoding.  They are using only the four least significant bits of each MIDI byte.  NP, we have a NAMED TICKS table for that.

Part 3 starts listing specific setting addresses.

Images

Screenshot 2024-04-08 at 3.34.55 PM.png

Screenshot 2024-04-08 at 4.00.34 PM.png

Comments

This is fantastic. "Roland nibble encoding" is slightly annoying. I wonder how common it is and whether we should build it into the App. But for the lazy side right now, please share the spreadsheet -- or a CSV, or whatever --  if you feel it. THANKS for the support so far. I'm excited to get my one knob working.

Answer 4

Part 2: Memory Map Overview

Part 1 discussed the message format.  What goes in the address bits?  If we had a Roland MIDI Implementation, they would first show the overall memory layout.

Here is what I have decoded so far.  My focus was on the sequencer, so I haven't decoded where instrument and maybe sample data lives.

A complicator with the TRs is that there is no scratchpad memory (or maybe the entire unit is scratchpad).

On many synths (all Roland I have worked so far), if I want to edit the sound in part 1, it will be found in a fixed memory location TEMP - Part 1.

The TR does not copy data to a TEMP buffer, but plays directly from original memory locations.  So if I want to edit the instrument in the Bass Drum slot, I cannot go to TEMP - BD.  Instead, we have to look up which kit that is, determine the memory offset for that, then a memory offset for the Bass Drum, then send (or req) value to that address.

Looking at the example message, the address data is 10 59 18 10    
- Using the table, we can see this is kit data, kit 59h, or kit 90 (89 + 1)
- The data is two bytes.  The highest value is 0F - 0F.   This appears is a value that goes 0-255 (00-FF) using what I call Roland nibble encoding.  They are using only the four least significant bits of each MIDI byte.  NP, we have a NAMED TICKS table for that.

Part 3 starts listing specific setting addresses.

Images

Screenshot 2024-04-08 at 3.34.55 PM.png

Screenshot 2024-04-08 at 4.00.34 PM.png

Answer 5

Part 3: Roland Nibble Formats

The image shows how we recognize the nibble formats in a Roland MIDI Implementation chart - 0000 in left hand nibble, xxxx in right hand.
- Address 00 01, Type, is Roland two nibble
- Address 00 07, Parameter 1, is Roland four nibble
- We also occasionally see Roland three nibble - the TRs use this for tempo
- Roland one nibble is a don't care - this is just a 0-15 control
- For an additional twist, the Parameter values shown below may start with an 8_, such as 8x 0x 0x 0x.  
  (Looking at right column, we see it covers a - to + range, doing the math, 0 is at 80 00 00 00.  Negative values rarely appear, so we ignore the leading 8 in math, just add at end.)  I have not seen the 8x format in the TRs, but I haven't been into effects yet, which is where it often appears.

Converting from the MIDI (Rn) to V
- Multiply MSB by 16, add next digit, repeat until LSB is added
- Four digit version (((((V3 * 16) + V2) * 16) + V1) * 16) + V0

Converting from V to Rn
- to load MD Named ticks (two digit): Rn = int(V/16) * 128 + mod(V,16)
- three and more get complicated, have to deal with remainders.  Gotta remember where I have it captured.  (Got too many Roland spreadsheets.)

Images

Roland Nibbles shown in MIDI Implementation Chart

Answer 6

Part 3: Roland Nibble Formats

The image shows how we recognize the nibble formats in a Roland MIDI Implementation chart - 0000 in left hand nibble, xxxx in right hand.
- Address 00 01, Type, is Roland two nibble
- Address 00 07, Parameter 1, is Roland four nibble
- We also occasionally see Roland three nibble - the TRs use this for tempo
- Roland one nibble is a don't care - this is just a 0-15 control
- For an additional twist, the Parameter values shown below may start with an 8_, such as 8x 0x 0x 0x.  
  (Looking at right column, we see it covers a - to + range, doing the math, 0 is at 80 00 00 00.  Negative values rarely appear, so we ignore the leading 8 in math, just add at end.)  I have not seen the 8x format in the TRs, but I haven't been into effects yet, which is where it often appears.

Converting from the MIDI (Rn) to V
- Multiply MSB by 16, add next digit, repeat until LSB is added
- Four digit version (((((V3 * 16) + V2) * 16) + V1) * 16) + V0

Converting from V to Rn
- to load MD Named ticks (two digit): Rn = int(V/16) * 128 + mod(V,16)
- three and more get complicated, have to deal with remainders.  Gotta remember where I have it captured.  (Got too many Roland spreadsheets.)

Images

Roland Nibbles shown in MIDI Implementation Chart

Answer 7

Working SysEx Message Details

MIDI Target Manufacturer(s): Roland

Think this is starting to look pretty solid - filled in most of the step edit details, and able to get the board to respond to most things with the TR managers.  Images are overview - look in the file for the details.

Downloads: 263
TR6s - 8s SysEx Format 250302.pdf.zip - Starting to look pretty solid though step edit data
Downloads: 59

TR8s-6s SysEx format 250227.pdf.zip - (Old version, do not use)
Downloads: 44

TR6s TR8S SysEx Format 240505.pdf.zip - (Old version - do not use)
Downloads: 78

TR-8s TR-6s SysEx Implementation 24-04-17.pdf.zip - (Old version - do not use)
Downloads: 79

Images

Tr 6s / 8s Message Formats

Tr 6s / 8s Memory Overview

Tr 6s / 8s Message Details

Tr 6s / 8s Step Edit Overview.png

Comments

this is your own TR-6S and TR-8S MIDI manual?

---

... when we are done with it, will be public.

---

Love it, thanks thanks!

---

latest spreadsheet added

Answer 8

Working SysEx Message Details

MIDI Target Manufacturer(s): Roland

Think this is starting to look pretty solid - filled in most of the step edit details, and able to get the board to respond to most things with the TR managers.  Images are overview - look in the file for the details.

Downloads: 263
TR6s - 8s SysEx Format 250302.pdf.zip - Starting to look pretty solid though step edit data
Downloads: 59

TR8s-6s SysEx format 250227.pdf.zip - (Old version, do not use)
Downloads: 44

TR6s TR8S SysEx Format 240505.pdf.zip - (Old version - do not use)
Downloads: 78

TR-8s TR-6s SysEx Implementation 24-04-17.pdf.zip - (Old version - do not use)
Downloads: 79

Images

Tr 6s / 8s Message Formats

Tr 6s / 8s Memory Overview

Tr 6s / 8s Message Details

Tr 6s / 8s Step Edit Overview.png