Can a channelchanger (I or II) knob be used as a variable control and the V byte as a 14bit sysex changer?

Question

MIDI Target Manufacturer(s): Original, Generic

Hi all,

This came up in another thread, https://mididesigner.com/qa/7738/can-a-sysex-message-be-built-from-values-of-two-layout-items, my first solution but it isn't solid. 

"41 00 00 00 00 33 12 60 00 03 3A V (chorus low rate)

For the target device (boss katana) all sysex is mostly same until you get to the last bytes 03 3A and the variable (V 0-127) 

Setup example: One normal Knob with sysex and one channel controller + presets knob which gets to be a supercontrol of normal knob.

Normal knob: If we create 41 00 00 00 00 33 12 60 00 V L, use 2 bytes for V,  create 25 ticks (25 fx) , activate named ticks, we fill in decimal 442 (use 7 bit calculator on hex 03 3A https://mididesigner.com/help/midi-byte-calculator/ ) named tick in slot 1...

Then we set the channel changer + preset at 128 ticks and midi value 0-127 as a value control.
Set the normal knob at First value.

Turn the channel changer + preset knob and check the log.

You can use the channel changer control now as the chorus rate knob, use the channel changer+ presets knob as a variable knob. Magic would start to happen of we could force normal knob in slot 2 with another value and could use channel changer + presets again as a value control.

This way we could set up a whole fx department with few knobs! Problem is forcing the normal knob in another value and the preset function of channel changer + preset knob works not quite that way. 

Does this make sense and could team mididesigner or other experienced member chime in on this?"

No hurry here, I'm interested in all the options.

Thanks for your input,

Gurbz

Downloads: 481
example layout - Activate midi log and check: at left at first value normal knob it seems to work but there are inconsistencies because it is driven by a channelchanger + preset knob. At right the same setup but no channelchanger + preset function, there is no output.
Downloads: 481

Images

E2BD4645-1D10-4E7A-81D4-827DC2DCA579.png

Comments

This looks like a question. Is this a question about the current app, a suggestion for modifications to the App, or...?

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Current app. When I set up this solution up with channelchanger + presets it works partly, the preset option creates some trouble, it doesn't;t work as a super-->subcontrol construction.
When I set this up with channel changer (without preset option) the 'normal knob' does not send output.

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Hi all, I created a layout for download, that’s easier.

Uh: till now left configuration only works for first value. When selecting value 2 normal knob, and turning the channel change knob after that, the normal knob goes back to value one.

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Bottomline: a way to change 2 non-variable bytes with a named tick list would be awesome! I manage 1 byte with L, channelchanger, but thats limited to 0-127 dec

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So if Channel Changers could be more than one byte, would that be enough?

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Well the question is solved this way so the request isn't needed.
However: with this solution, and maybe I'm wrong, I see maybe more double messages.
Could you try the answer layout and report your findings?

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Hey man, will do at some point in early September, remind me if not please. Glad you're digging in and getting results!
Dan

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Solved the double output with a fantastic streambyter output script from Nic @ audeonic

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An option to make channel changer 2-bytes would be useful for certain scenarios (where one is using them as a second variable rather than an actual channel changer)

Answer 1

Create a knob with named ticks, a channel changer I and control both with a supercontrol.

MIDI Target Manufacturer(s): Original, Generic

You guys! Getting excited here with this solution, I uploaded it. Please check if I ‘m right.

Set it up:

Normal knob like earlier on described and the channel changer I ( no preset) BUT: ADD an extra supercontrol for both.

Set normal knob in menu options as a sub on ‘send current value’

The extra supercontrol will add the missing L byte as a variable.

When using a named tick list you can enter the non variable sysex values in the list.

Try it and thanks Dan, I followed a few suggestions you made in another thread but I didn’t see those followed up. https://mididesigner.com/qa/2053/controlling-the-channel-changer?show=2053#q2053

Update:

Only thing that’s off is the double sysex messages, Nic from Audeonic came with a fantastic streambyter output script to filter out the doubles:

IF M0 == F0 41 00 00 # roland sysex
  IF M7 == 12 60 00 # KATANA

    # detect dupe message within last 100ms
    # If is a dupe, set L83 to 1
    ASS L83 = 0 # assume not a dupe

    # compare message with previous
    # previous data of katana message is in
    # L80-2 (address+value)

    IF MA == L80 L81 L82
      # use a timer variable to limit
      # the compare window
      IF T0 < 1000
        ASS L83 = 1
      END
    END

    # always remember the last message (address+val)

    # into L80-2
    ASS L80 = M0A M0B M0C

    IF L83 == 0
      # we have a new message, so you put your code
      # that processes the message inside this IF/END
    END

    # dupe, message should be blocked
    IF L83 == 1
      XX = XX +B
    END

  END
END

Thanks so much mididesigner and Audeonic, you guys rock!

Cheers,

Gurbz

Downloads: 506
20,000 knobs in one. - Updates: ‘send on release only’ added for one knob, the Audeonic streambyter script added
Downloads: 506

Images

Image 1

Image 2

Comments

Awesome, you're becoming our resident StreamByter expert! Hats off to Nic for inventing this stuff and helping out so generously!

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Haha! Scripting or maths are not my strong suit. The kudos go to nic. That makes this a dutch, irish and american collaboration. Let’s celebrate in dublin.
Anyway: I’m gonna totally redesign my upcoming layouts with these new options.

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gurbz: I was just thinking about a way that we could use streambyter to simplify setting up effect control knobs by sending out fake sysex that streambyter converts to correct sysex.

It goes something like this, I could have 2 mod knobs that are intended for adjusting the two different effect parameters. The parameters affected would depend on the effect. The knobs would be supercontrols with the following subcontrols: effect type, effect channel (whether loaded as Mod or FX2), knob value, knob number. These subcontrols would send sysex with a custom header byte that identifies them as being custom and not Roland Sysex). The streambyter script would be set up with a a lookup table that would map the knob number to a specific Katana parameter sysex message based on the the messages for the effect type and effect channel

Basically, when the script gets the first custom sysex message, it waits till it has received all the related messages that it needs to determine what real Katana sysex to send.

This might be convenient and similar to the Katana's knob use (where the knob controls the most commonly changed parameter) except that it bypasses the knob sysex (which interferes with the Boost or Delay setting). It might be complicated to set up initially, but I think it would be simple to maintain and customize once set up.

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That sounds do-able and if you’re comfortable with scripting a nice challenge. I design multiple layouts and in the process, along the way, I learn stuff.
With a little help of mididesigner and maybe audeonic definitely do-able.
I have a thread at audeonic soapbox with a lookup table discussed I think.
But I’m gonna redesign my main katana layout with the findings in this thread because it’s cool to try it out. I don’t know which concept is ‘better’ but thats also not the point. Let’s try both, throw out garbage and keep succeses

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Btw, I just realized the implication of what you have explained. One could have (for example) a knob for the phaser that selects between: phaser type, rate, depth, manual, reso, Step Rate, effect level, dry level and then a channel changer the provides the actual parameter value.

So, most effects could have two controls that could be used to set all of their parameters. Which allows one to have just a page or two which provides access to all available parameters.

I also realized that you can set parameters for any effect whether it is active or not. When you switch to the effect it will take on those parameters. So, it will be easy to set up a template that lets you set up your preferred defaults for all effects.

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I have done a quick implementation of this to adjust all phaser parameters using one knob to select the parameter (2-byte value using named ticks) and a channel changer to provide the parameter value.

It worked great.

I tried to add a stepper for the knob that selects the parameter but was unsuccessful in getting it to work. I couldn't figure out a combination of settings that would allow it to work.

The other thing that I realized is that while this works brilliantly for editing the Katana effect parameters, the settings for the effect won't be recalled if you save and recall a global preset. For that to work there needs to be one control for each restored parameter. A workaround is that when you have the parameters you like, you can save them into the amp.

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Did you checkout the layout I send of your thread? Then you have a basic layout of six effects and how that would work. Logic dictates that the katana handles a few sysex ranges (departments) at once (in a preset): eq, amp, boost, mod, delay, fx, reverb and a few system sysex messages. So a mod or fx section can only send a selected effect when asked and not two. If you want 2 effects you have to activate for example the fx section. Bottomline:
It is logical and acceptable to create a 26 effects in one or two pages because the amp can only handle one sysex range from that section/department at a time.

The preset function should not be a problem, tried it already I think. Looking at all parameters one needs different value knobs, look at the eq’s and a regular fx knob (0-127 dec) or the fx type knobs which have sometimes only 2 values, 14, or 22. I see a challenge there.

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I am not sure which layout of yours, you mean when you say "the layout I send of your thread".

I am thinking that ultimately, I will make use of two different types of Katana front-ends. One of which is comprehensive with a control for each storable Katana parameter and another 'compact' front-end that uses few controls (for compactness) at the cost of its presets not containing all the data.

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Yeah I meant the 6-in-1 fx but we have already advanced.
Getting a raspberry pi to check out the wireless bidirectional midi support.

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Btw, I realized yesterday that it is easy to fetch settings from the amp and have that fetched settings reflect in the MDP template.  I am not yet sure if I'll end up making use of that. But it occurred to me that I could use it to get the setups I have in the Boss Tone Library into my MDP template. MDP auto-magically will parse messages from the amp if there is a corresponding control that has the same sysex setup.

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I’d like to know more about that, the acquired raspberry will certainly help to receive data from the amp

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The short version is this. To get a parameter from the Katana, you send a message that starts with:

41 00 00 00 00 33 11

The 11 is a query request whereas a 12 tells the Katana that the message is a message to set a value.

After the 11, you provide the four bytes that identify the 'block' being queried. For example, to find out the Boost on/off setting, the  'block' is 60 00 00 30

The next four bytes tell the Katana how many bytes (settings) you want to receive back. If you just want the Boost on/off setting you send 00 00 00 01 followed by the usual checksum (that MDP calculates for you.

So, to get the current Boost on/off, you send this sysex:

41 00 00 00 00 33 11 60 00 00 30 00 00 00 01

The Katana will respond back with

41 00 00 00 00 33 12 60 00 00 30 00 or 41 00 00 00 00 33 12 60 00 00 30 01 depending on whether boos is on or off.

If you have a button or slider that is set to send 41 00 00 00 00 33 12 60 00 00 30 V, and MIDI receive is on for it, then when the Katana sends the message the MDP control will set itself to the received value.

The Katana can also send back consecutive settings at once. I think that the four bytes that follow the 11 or 12 are actually memory addresses  in the Katana. So to get back the 8 settings staring with 60 00 00 30, you send

41 00 00 00 00 33 11 60 00 00 30 00 00 00 08

The Katana then sends back a message like

41 00 00 00 00 33 12 60 00 00 30 aa bb cc dd ee ff gg hh where aa bb, etc are values for the settings. That format is much faster than sending individual queries for each individual setting but would require a StreamByter script to translate into something useful in MDP.

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I'll put together an example and post it to you soon.

Answer 2

Create a knob with named ticks, a channel changer I and control both with a supercontrol.

MIDI Target Manufacturer(s): Original, Generic

You guys! Getting excited here with this solution, I uploaded it. Please check if I ‘m right.

Set it up:

Normal knob like earlier on described and the channel changer I ( no preset) BUT: ADD an extra supercontrol for both.

Set normal knob in menu options as a sub on ‘send current value’

The extra supercontrol will add the missing L byte as a variable.

When using a named tick list you can enter the non variable sysex values in the list.

Try it and thanks Dan, I followed a few suggestions you made in another thread but I didn’t see those followed up. https://mididesigner.com/qa/2053/controlling-the-channel-changer?show=2053#q2053

Update:

Only thing that’s off is the double sysex messages, Nic from Audeonic came with a fantastic streambyter output script to filter out the doubles:

IF M0 == F0 41 00 00 # roland sysex
  IF M7 == 12 60 00 # KATANA

    # detect dupe message within last 100ms
    # If is a dupe, set L83 to 1
    ASS L83 = 0 # assume not a dupe

    # compare message with previous
    # previous data of katana message is in
    # L80-2 (address+value)

    IF MA == L80 L81 L82
      # use a timer variable to limit
      # the compare window
      IF T0 < 1000
        ASS L83 = 1
      END
    END

    # always remember the last message (address+val)

    # into L80-2
    ASS L80 = M0A M0B M0C

    IF L83 == 0
      # we have a new message, so you put your code
      # that processes the message inside this IF/END
    END

    # dupe, message should be blocked
    IF L83 == 1
      XX = XX +B
    END

  END
END

Thanks so much mididesigner and Audeonic, you guys rock!

Cheers,

Gurbz

Downloads: 506
20,000 knobs in one. - Updates: ‘send on release only’ added for one knob, the Audeonic streambyter script added
Downloads: 506

Images

Image 1

Image 2